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	<title>Comments on: Seeking Self-Determination Is Not Selfish</title>
	<atom:link href="http://athousandnations.com/2009/06/02/seeking-self-determination-is-not-selfish/feed/" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://athousandnations.com/2009/06/02/seeking-self-determination-is-not-selfish/</link>
	<description>Towards a Cambrian Explosion in Government</description>
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		<title>By: biggiegray</title>
		<link>http://athousandnations.com/2009/06/02/seeking-self-determination-is-not-selfish/#comment-13820</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[biggiegray]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 20 Aug 2011 06:50:11 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://athousandnations.com/?p=200#comment-13820</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[We on the left think libertarians are infantile and immature as well.  Thus it isn&#039;t surprising that you think left/liberal discussion about seasteading is infantile.  You aren&#039;t mature enough to understand it.  Your complete lack of maturity explains why you percieve what you call &quot;cognitive dissidence&quot; from the liberal-left about tolerance.  Liberals have long considered racial and cultural tolerance a very important value.  Political and economic diversity?  No, not so much.  Even if we did does that Alternet article and the comments show that liberals are intolerant of libertarians?  Of course not, but libertarians (and conservatives) don&#039;t seem to get this.  I&#039;m not sure if they truly don&#039;t or just pretending to.  Either way they seem to think tolerance involves never criticizing, question, or just plain making fun of a persons beliefs or actions,  It doesn&#039;t.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>We on the left think libertarians are infantile and immature as well.  Thus it isn&#8217;t surprising that you think left/liberal discussion about seasteading is infantile.  You aren&#8217;t mature enough to understand it.  Your complete lack of maturity explains why you percieve what you call &#8220;cognitive dissidence&#8221; from the liberal-left about tolerance.  Liberals have long considered racial and cultural tolerance a very important value.  Political and economic diversity?  No, not so much.  Even if we did does that Alternet article and the comments show that liberals are intolerant of libertarians?  Of course not, but libertarians (and conservatives) don&#8217;t seem to get this.  I&#8217;m not sure if they truly don&#8217;t or just pretending to.  Either way they seem to think tolerance involves never criticizing, question, or just plain making fun of a persons beliefs or actions,  It doesn&#8217;t.</p>
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		<title>By: Alan R. Light</title>
		<link>http://athousandnations.com/2009/06/02/seeking-self-determination-is-not-selfish/#comment-594</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Alan R. Light]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 01 Aug 2009 04:45:56 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://athousandnations.com/?p=200#comment-594</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Actually, the British government held that the American colonists DID have full representation, as Parliament had representatives for all classes, including aristocrats, ordinary businessmen and farmers, and ordinary laborers.  The fact that these representatives knew little or nothing about America and were not answerable to them was beside the point.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Actually, the British government held that the American colonists DID have full representation, as Parliament had representatives for all classes, including aristocrats, ordinary businessmen and farmers, and ordinary laborers.  The fact that these representatives knew little or nothing about America and were not answerable to them was beside the point.</p>
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		<title>By: Jambi</title>
		<link>http://athousandnations.com/2009/06/02/seeking-self-determination-is-not-selfish/#comment-251</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Jambi]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 07 Jun 2009 17:35:30 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://athousandnations.com/?p=200#comment-251</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[cognitive dissonance

The liberal left are among the most cognitive dissonant, and yes, they are often immature (literally)]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>cognitive dissonance</p>
<p>The liberal left are among the most cognitive dissonant, and yes, they are often immature (literally)</p>
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		<title>By: kurt9</title>
		<link>http://athousandnations.com/2009/06/02/seeking-self-determination-is-not-selfish/#comment-247</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[kurt9]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 05 Jun 2009 19:37:19 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://athousandnations.com/?p=200#comment-247</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[The &quot;seasteading&quot; thread on Alternet is a perfect example why I do not read liberal-left blogs. The commentary there is so infantile that it is senseless to make any reasonable responses to it. Even their discussion of libertarian seasteading is in and of itself very infantile. They don&#039;t like libertarians and obviously have no interest in seasteading themselves. If a bunch of libertarians do manage to pull it together enough to make seasteading work, it would not affect them anyways. So, the fact that they are ranting and raving about it is infantile.

The cognitive dissidence&#039;s of liberal-left people are really quite immature. They preach and go on and on about tolerance of racial and cultural diversity. However, their belief in tolerance does not include political and economic diversity.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The &#8220;seasteading&#8221; thread on Alternet is a perfect example why I do not read liberal-left blogs. The commentary there is so infantile that it is senseless to make any reasonable responses to it. Even their discussion of libertarian seasteading is in and of itself very infantile. They don&#8217;t like libertarians and obviously have no interest in seasteading themselves. If a bunch of libertarians do manage to pull it together enough to make seasteading work, it would not affect them anyways. So, the fact that they are ranting and raving about it is infantile.</p>
<p>The cognitive dissidence&#8217;s of liberal-left people are really quite immature. They preach and go on and on about tolerance of racial and cultural diversity. However, their belief in tolerance does not include political and economic diversity.</p>
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		<title>By: Edgewise.Sigma</title>
		<link>http://athousandnations.com/2009/06/02/seeking-self-determination-is-not-selfish/#comment-240</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Edgewise.Sigma]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 05 Jun 2009 04:35:07 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://athousandnations.com/?p=200#comment-240</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Folks, FYI, something from a [leftish] sci-fi novel:

From &quot;Green Mars&quot; (the 2nd novel in Kim Stanley Robinson&#039;s &quot;Mars&quot; trilogy), pp. 328-329, 1994 Hardcover edition:

&quot;&quot;The transnationals have collapsed down into the couple dozen largest of them,&quot; he said in response to one question,&quot; all of which have enterred into development contracts with more than one national government. We call those the metanationals. The biggest are Subarashii, Mitsubishi, Consolidated, Amexx, Armscor, Mahjari, and Praxis. The next ten or fifteen are also quite big, and after that you&#039;re back down to transat size, but these are being quickly incorporates into the metanats. The big metanats are now the major world powers, insofar as they control the IMF, the World Bank, the Group of Eleven, and all their client countries.&quot;

Sax asked him to define a metanational in more detail.

&quot;About a decade ago we at Praxis were asked by Sri Lanka to come into their country and take over the economy and work on arbitration between the Tamils and the Singhalese. We did that and the results were good, but during the time of the arrangement it was clear that our relationship with a national government was a new kind of thing. It got noticed in certain circles. Then some years ago Amexx got into a disagreement with the Group of Eleven, and pulled all of its assets out of the Eleven and relocated them in the Philippines. The mismatch between Amexx and the Philippines, estimated in gross yearly product to be on the order of a hundred to one, resulted in a situation where Amexx in effect took that country over. That was the first real metanational, though it wasn&#039;t clear that it was a new thing until their arrangement was imitated by Subarashii, when they shifted many of their operations into Brazil. It became clear that this was something new, not like the old flag-of-convenience relationship. A metanational takes over the foreign debt and the internal economy of its client countries, kind of like the UN did in Cambodia or Praxis did in Sri Lanka, but much more comprehensively. In these arrangements the client government becomes the enforcement agency of the metanational&#039;s economic policies. In general they enforce what are called austerity measures, but all government employees are paid much more than they were before, including the army and police and intelligence operations. So at that point, the country is bought. And every metanational has the resources to but several countries...&quot;

****************************************************************
This scenario is obviously being depicted as a &quot;bad&quot; thing (there is something of an exception to that, though...), but I&#039;m guessing this scenario connects in some ways to some of the ideas/thoughts/issues discussed on this site. (I wish I had been able to post this beneath the &quot;Free Zones&quot; post or the &quot;Innovation and Letting a Thousand Nations Bloom&quot; post....)]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Folks, FYI, something from a [leftish] sci-fi novel:</p>
<p>From &#8220;Green Mars&#8221; (the 2nd novel in Kim Stanley Robinson&#8217;s &#8220;Mars&#8221; trilogy), pp. 328-329, 1994 Hardcover edition:</p>
<p>&#8220;&#8221;The transnationals have collapsed down into the couple dozen largest of them,&#8221; he said in response to one question,&#8221; all of which have enterred into development contracts with more than one national government. We call those the metanationals. The biggest are Subarashii, Mitsubishi, Consolidated, Amexx, Armscor, Mahjari, and Praxis. The next ten or fifteen are also quite big, and after that you&#8217;re back down to transat size, but these are being quickly incorporates into the metanats. The big metanats are now the major world powers, insofar as they control the IMF, the World Bank, the Group of Eleven, and all their client countries.&#8221;</p>
<p>Sax asked him to define a metanational in more detail.</p>
<p>&#8220;About a decade ago we at Praxis were asked by Sri Lanka to come into their country and take over the economy and work on arbitration between the Tamils and the Singhalese. We did that and the results were good, but during the time of the arrangement it was clear that our relationship with a national government was a new kind of thing. It got noticed in certain circles. Then some years ago Amexx got into a disagreement with the Group of Eleven, and pulled all of its assets out of the Eleven and relocated them in the Philippines. The mismatch between Amexx and the Philippines, estimated in gross yearly product to be on the order of a hundred to one, resulted in a situation where Amexx in effect took that country over. That was the first real metanational, though it wasn&#8217;t clear that it was a new thing until their arrangement was imitated by Subarashii, when they shifted many of their operations into Brazil. It became clear that this was something new, not like the old flag-of-convenience relationship. A metanational takes over the foreign debt and the internal economy of its client countries, kind of like the UN did in Cambodia or Praxis did in Sri Lanka, but much more comprehensively. In these arrangements the client government becomes the enforcement agency of the metanational&#8217;s economic policies. In general they enforce what are called austerity measures, but all government employees are paid much more than they were before, including the army and police and intelligence operations. So at that point, the country is bought. And every metanational has the resources to but several countries&#8230;&#8221;</p>
<p>****************************************************************<br />
This scenario is obviously being depicted as a &#8220;bad&#8221; thing (there is something of an exception to that, though&#8230;), but I&#8217;m guessing this scenario connects in some ways to some of the ideas/thoughts/issues discussed on this site. (I wish I had been able to post this beneath the &#8220;Free Zones&#8221; post or the &#8220;Innovation and Letting a Thousand Nations Bloom&#8221; post&#8230;.)</p>
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		<title>By: Brad Taylor</title>
		<link>http://athousandnations.com/2009/06/02/seeking-self-determination-is-not-selfish/#comment-234</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Brad Taylor]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 04 Jun 2009 00:41:59 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://athousandnations.com/?p=200#comment-234</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Ok, no img tag. Spider Jerusalem  has about the best &lt;a href=&quot;http://bradtaylor.wordpress.com/2009/04/13/spider-jerusalem-on-democracy/&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;critique of the romance of democracy.&lt;/a&gt;]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Ok, no img tag. Spider Jerusalem  has about the best <a href="http://bradtaylor.wordpress.com/2009/04/13/spider-jerusalem-on-democracy/" rel="nofollow">critique of the romance of democracy.</a></p>
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		<title>By: Brad Taylor</title>
		<link>http://athousandnations.com/2009/06/02/seeking-self-determination-is-not-selfish/#comment-233</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Brad Taylor]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 04 Jun 2009 00:39:25 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://athousandnations.com/?p=200#comment-233</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[]]></description>
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		<title>By: patrissimo</title>
		<link>http://athousandnations.com/2009/06/02/seeking-self-determination-is-not-selfish/#comment-232</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[patrissimo]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 03 Jun 2009 23:46:41 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://athousandnations.com/?p=200#comment-232</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[&lt;i&gt;I think the implicit definition of what it means to be “represented” in a political process here is somewhat shaky. If I can’t directly choose a representative to my liking, am I not being represented? If my representative is drowned out by the representatives of others, am I not being represented? This conception of representation seems to be an ironically positive one given how dismissive libertarians tend to be of positive rights – at the least, it sets up a standard whereby no political process will ever meaningfully be “representative” and which leads you to just talk past your opponents, who are using a definition that allows political losers to still claim to be represented by “their” Congresspeople or whoever else.&lt;/i&gt;

You are falling victim to the romance of democracy, the idea that whatever the govt does to you is justified as long as you got a vote.  If the majority votes to kill every man shorter than 5&#039; 6&quot;, is my murder OK because I have a &quot;representative&quot;?

I&#039;m not claiming that these issues are easy, or that one can construct an ideal political process where everyone is represented.  Pretty much everyone disagrees with everyone else, even with libertarianism, about the details, so there have to be compromises where people don&#039;t get their way - lots of them.  But I think that libertarians can meaningfully claim to be disenfranchised, despite having a nominal vote, due to having few to no actual representatives.  This is the same reason why regions that are ethnically and culturally homogeneous but are inside a larger state frequently want to secede.  The Kurds don&#039;t feel &quot;represented&quot; in a simple proportional voting system in Iraq - can you really blame them?]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><i>I think the implicit definition of what it means to be “represented” in a political process here is somewhat shaky. If I can’t directly choose a representative to my liking, am I not being represented? If my representative is drowned out by the representatives of others, am I not being represented? This conception of representation seems to be an ironically positive one given how dismissive libertarians tend to be of positive rights – at the least, it sets up a standard whereby no political process will ever meaningfully be “representative” and which leads you to just talk past your opponents, who are using a definition that allows political losers to still claim to be represented by “their” Congresspeople or whoever else.</i></p>
<p>You are falling victim to the romance of democracy, the idea that whatever the govt does to you is justified as long as you got a vote.  If the majority votes to kill every man shorter than 5&#8242; 6&#8243;, is my murder OK because I have a &#8220;representative&#8221;?</p>
<p>I&#8217;m not claiming that these issues are easy, or that one can construct an ideal political process where everyone is represented.  Pretty much everyone disagrees with everyone else, even with libertarianism, about the details, so there have to be compromises where people don&#8217;t get their way &#8211; lots of them.  But I think that libertarians can meaningfully claim to be disenfranchised, despite having a nominal vote, due to having few to no actual representatives.  This is the same reason why regions that are ethnically and culturally homogeneous but are inside a larger state frequently want to secede.  The Kurds don&#8217;t feel &#8220;represented&#8221; in a simple proportional voting system in Iraq &#8211; can you really blame them?</p>
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		<title>By: Where&#8217;s the Love? Or the Indifference? &#171; Brad Taylor&#8217;s Blog</title>
		<link>http://athousandnations.com/2009/06/02/seeking-self-determination-is-not-selfish/#comment-230</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Where&#8217;s the Love? Or the Indifference? &#171; Brad Taylor&#8217;s Blog]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 03 Jun 2009 02:19:53 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://athousandnations.com/?p=200#comment-230</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[[...] Friedman nicely summarises what it is that libertarians (even rich ones) have to be angry about here. What I find really worrying, though, is the tendency for people to think rich libertarians like [...]]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] Friedman nicely summarises what it is that libertarians (even rich ones) have to be angry about here. What I find really worrying, though, is the tendency for people to think rich libertarians like [...]</p>
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		<title>By: sconzey</title>
		<link>http://athousandnations.com/2009/06/02/seeking-self-determination-is-not-selfish/#comment-228</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[sconzey]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 02 Jun 2009 18:39:21 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://athousandnations.com/?p=200#comment-228</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[I have to confess, Reed Moore&#039;s argument does have a distinct Rand-ish twinge to it. 

&quot;Don&#039;t you dare vanish, Hank Rearden! America needs you! You wouldn&#039;t be so selfish?&quot; amirite?]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I have to confess, Reed Moore&#8217;s argument does have a distinct Rand-ish twinge to it. </p>
<p>&#8220;Don&#8217;t you dare vanish, Hank Rearden! America needs you! You wouldn&#8217;t be so selfish?&#8221; amirite?</p>
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