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	<title>Comments on: Another Kind of Libertarianism</title>
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	<link>http://athousandnations.com/2009/07/08/another-kind-of-libertarianism/</link>
	<description>Towards a Cambrian Explosion in Government</description>
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		<title>By: sconzey</title>
		<link>http://athousandnations.com/2009/07/08/another-kind-of-libertarianism/#comment-479</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[sconzey]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 14 Jul 2009 18:31:20 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://athousandnations.com/?p=451#comment-479</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Soon as the Lisbon treaty is ratified by all the countries in the EU. Then they can take whatever they like.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Soon as the Lisbon treaty is ratified by all the countries in the EU. Then they can take whatever they like.</p>
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		<title>By: Rafi</title>
		<link>http://athousandnations.com/2009/07/08/another-kind-of-libertarianism/#comment-478</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Rafi]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 14 Jul 2009 05:48:19 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://athousandnations.com/?p=451#comment-478</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Well at least they are asking, eh?  How long until they just flat out take?]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Well at least they are asking, eh?  How long until they just flat out take?</p>
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		<title>By: sconzey</title>
		<link>http://athousandnations.com/2009/07/08/another-kind-of-libertarianism/#comment-462</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[sconzey]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 11 Jul 2009 20:38:49 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://athousandnations.com/?p=451#comment-462</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[I&#039;m afraid the EU&#039;s public relations machine is as efficient as ever. It paints itself as &quot;a free trade area plus&quot; but really it&#039;s the epitome of undemocratic top-down statism. Asinine but expensive regulation, massive subsidies to special interest groups, huge barriers to trade outside the EU, and riven with schism within.

Just look at the recent Lisbon Treaty to see the EU&#039;s contempt for democracy. The EU Constitution was oft compared unfavourably to it&#039;s transatlantic equivalent -- not just because of it&#039;s heft, but it&#039;s impenetrable legalese, nobody quite knew what it did. So when most countries were offered a referendum on it, they voted &quot;No&quot; in droves.

&quot;Ah, sorry, that was the wrong answer&quot; came the reply -- some junior bureaucrat did a find and replace and the Constitution became the Lisbon treaty. As &quot;just another treaty&quot; no referendum was offered, except in Ireland, where some clever chap worked out that the changes outlined in the treaty were so sweeping it would require an amendment to the Irish Constitution to pass it into law, and Constitutional amendments require a referendum.

But, they voted &quot;No&quot; too... so what does the EU do? Asks again... :P]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;m afraid the EU&#8217;s public relations machine is as efficient as ever. It paints itself as &#8220;a free trade area plus&#8221; but really it&#8217;s the epitome of undemocratic top-down statism. Asinine but expensive regulation, massive subsidies to special interest groups, huge barriers to trade outside the EU, and riven with schism within.</p>
<p>Just look at the recent Lisbon Treaty to see the EU&#8217;s contempt for democracy. The EU Constitution was oft compared unfavourably to it&#8217;s transatlantic equivalent &#8212; not just because of it&#8217;s heft, but it&#8217;s impenetrable legalese, nobody quite knew what it did. So when most countries were offered a referendum on it, they voted &#8220;No&#8221; in droves.</p>
<p>&#8220;Ah, sorry, that was the wrong answer&#8221; came the reply &#8212; some junior bureaucrat did a find and replace and the Constitution became the Lisbon treaty. As &#8220;just another treaty&#8221; no referendum was offered, except in Ireland, where some clever chap worked out that the changes outlined in the treaty were so sweeping it would require an amendment to the Irish Constitution to pass it into law, and Constitutional amendments require a referendum.</p>
<p>But, they voted &#8220;No&#8221; too&#8230; so what does the EU do? Asks again&#8230; <img src='http://s2.wp.com/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_razz.gif' alt=':P' class='wp-smiley' /> </p>
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		<title>By: Michael F. Martin</title>
		<link>http://athousandnations.com/2009/07/08/another-kind-of-libertarianism/#comment-461</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Michael F. Martin]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 11 Jul 2009 17:42:32 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://athousandnations.com/?p=451#comment-461</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[I&#039;m generally intrigued by the idea of maintaining culture in a dynamically stable critical stasis, which balances prosperity against long-term stability.  The reason I&#039;m skeptical about any complaint about the U.S. system is that it actually comes pretty close.  Although the EU may today be closer to the ideal of our founders.

Some hierarchy is necessary to maintaining stability; figuring out how to give ambitious and capable young people from all walks of life opportunities to ascend within the hierarchy without destabilizing it -- that&#039;s a hard case.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;m generally intrigued by the idea of maintaining culture in a dynamically stable critical stasis, which balances prosperity against long-term stability.  The reason I&#8217;m skeptical about any complaint about the U.S. system is that it actually comes pretty close.  Although the EU may today be closer to the ideal of our founders.</p>
<p>Some hierarchy is necessary to maintaining stability; figuring out how to give ambitious and capable young people from all walks of life opportunities to ascend within the hierarchy without destabilizing it &#8212; that&#8217;s a hard case.</p>
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		<title>By: Peter</title>
		<link>http://athousandnations.com/2009/07/08/another-kind-of-libertarianism/#comment-460</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Peter]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 11 Jul 2009 17:37:22 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://athousandnations.com/?p=451#comment-460</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[I assume you&#039;ve also seen the California vs. Texas article in the recent Economist, demonstrating the importance of federalism in which different policies allow different outcomes.

(It also includes a depressing idea of how free-market policies lead to prosperity, which lead to the immigration [in this case illegal, but that&#039;s not the key feature] of people trying to capture a slice of that prosperity for themselves, which leads to redistributive interest groups, which leads to ever-expanding government, which leads to the stagnation that we see in California.  In other words we only see libertarian governance in poor but developing areas, and even this libertarianism contains the seeds of its own destruction.)]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I assume you&#8217;ve also seen the California vs. Texas article in the recent Economist, demonstrating the importance of federalism in which different policies allow different outcomes.</p>
<p>(It also includes a depressing idea of how free-market policies lead to prosperity, which lead to the immigration [in this case illegal, but that's not the key feature] of people trying to capture a slice of that prosperity for themselves, which leads to redistributive interest groups, which leads to ever-expanding government, which leads to the stagnation that we see in California.  In other words we only see libertarian governance in poor but developing areas, and even this libertarianism contains the seeds of its own destruction.)</p>
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		<title>By: Michael F. Martin</title>
		<link>http://athousandnations.com/2009/07/08/another-kind-of-libertarianism/#comment-454</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Michael F. Martin]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 09 Jul 2009 21:51:36 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://athousandnations.com/?p=451#comment-454</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[I probably came off as overly critical.  But negative feedback can have a stabilizing effect, so I hope it&#039;s taken in good faith, as it was meant.

I may also not have given enough weight to the experience of the founding generation of having drafted multiple state and federal constitutions.  There is a strong argument that it was that iterative set of experiences with constitution making that produced our Constitution as much as it was the background cultural norms that facilitated its ratification.  Again, nature and nurture.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I probably came off as overly critical.  But negative feedback can have a stabilizing effect, so I hope it&#8217;s taken in good faith, as it was meant.</p>
<p>I may also not have given enough weight to the experience of the founding generation of having drafted multiple state and federal constitutions.  There is a strong argument that it was that iterative set of experiences with constitution making that produced our Constitution as much as it was the background cultural norms that facilitated its ratification.  Again, nature and nurture.</p>
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		<title>By: sconzey</title>
		<link>http://athousandnations.com/2009/07/08/another-kind-of-libertarianism/#comment-453</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[sconzey]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 09 Jul 2009 20:50:03 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://athousandnations.com/?p=451#comment-453</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[I concurr; revolutions are bloody and largely unpredictable. The idea behind second-order libertarianism is that if you want to do things differently, you find somewhere that will let you. Vote with your feet, etc.

Currently, that place looks to be the Sea, which will require a carefully concocted incrementalist approach to sovereignty, but largely-autonomous financial areas like JAFZ, Singapore, and Hong Kong set a nice precedent for partial-seccession within a larger, more illiberal country.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I concurr; revolutions are bloody and largely unpredictable. The idea behind second-order libertarianism is that if you want to do things differently, you find somewhere that will let you. Vote with your feet, etc.</p>
<p>Currently, that place looks to be the Sea, which will require a carefully concocted incrementalist approach to sovereignty, but largely-autonomous financial areas like JAFZ, Singapore, and Hong Kong set a nice precedent for partial-seccession within a larger, more illiberal country.</p>
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		<title>By: Michael F. Martin</title>
		<link>http://athousandnations.com/2009/07/08/another-kind-of-libertarianism/#comment-448</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Michael F. Martin]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 09 Jul 2009 00:13:59 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://athousandnations.com/?p=451#comment-448</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Oh.  And public choice theory is simply a more rigorous statement of Marxism.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Oh.  And public choice theory is simply a more rigorous statement of Marxism.</p>
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		<title>By: Michael F. Martin</title>
		<link>http://athousandnations.com/2009/07/08/another-kind-of-libertarianism/#comment-447</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Michael F. Martin]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 09 Jul 2009 00:12:58 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://athousandnations.com/?p=451#comment-447</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[&lt;i&gt;We believe it is short-sighted to focus on analyzing policy and suggesting better ones, because policies emerge from institutions, and democracy is not an institution which optimizes for good policy.  Reforming institutions is worthwhile, and we believe the best way to do this is by making the governing industry more competitive by lowering the barrier to entry and cost of switching providers. &lt;/i&gt;

This is the cultural analog to the nature/nurture debate.  The answer is yes, both.  Policies =&gt; Institutions =&gt; Policies&#039; =&gt; Instiutions&#039; =&gt; etc.

Now what you have going for you here is the historical fact that institutional reform almost never comes from within.  Almost.

What you have goign against you is perhaps more signifant -- and disadvantages are noticable absent from your post here.  What you have going against you is a history of fantastically bloody and violent revolutions.  Competition among sovereigns tends not to be polite!

Take two historical models: the French and American Revolutions.  How are you going to tweak your reform efforts in such a way as to be more like one than the other?

The answer you will find, I believe, is that some good institutions emerge from good policies that preexisted them.  See Weber, Calvin, Luther, &amp;c., &amp;c.

See here, for example:

http://www.christianitytoday.com/bc/2009/janfeb/17.28.html?start=1]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><i>We believe it is short-sighted to focus on analyzing policy and suggesting better ones, because policies emerge from institutions, and democracy is not an institution which optimizes for good policy.  Reforming institutions is worthwhile, and we believe the best way to do this is by making the governing industry more competitive by lowering the barrier to entry and cost of switching providers. </i></p>
<p>This is the cultural analog to the nature/nurture debate.  The answer is yes, both.  Policies =&gt; Institutions =&gt; Policies&#8217; =&gt; Instiutions&#8217; =&gt; etc.</p>
<p>Now what you have going for you here is the historical fact that institutional reform almost never comes from within.  Almost.</p>
<p>What you have goign against you is perhaps more signifant &#8212; and disadvantages are noticable absent from your post here.  What you have going against you is a history of fantastically bloody and violent revolutions.  Competition among sovereigns tends not to be polite!</p>
<p>Take two historical models: the French and American Revolutions.  How are you going to tweak your reform efforts in such a way as to be more like one than the other?</p>
<p>The answer you will find, I believe, is that some good institutions emerge from good policies that preexisted them.  See Weber, Calvin, Luther, &amp;c., &amp;c.</p>
<p>See here, for example:</p>
<p><a href="http://www.christianitytoday.com/bc/2009/janfeb/17.28.html?start=1" rel="nofollow">http://www.christianitytoday.com/bc/2009/janfeb/17.28.html?start=1</a></p>
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