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	<title>Comments on: Towards YouTopia: Must All Public Good Providers Remain Earthbound?</title>
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	<link>http://athousandnations.com/2009/10/20/towards-youtopia-are-all-public-good-providers-earthbound/</link>
	<description>Towards a Cambrian Explosion in Government</description>
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		<title>By: Seasteading and the Constructal Principal &#171; Let A Thousand Nations Bloom</title>
		<link>http://athousandnations.com/2009/10/20/towards-youtopia-are-all-public-good-providers-earthbound/#comment-13399</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Seasteading and the Constructal Principal &#171; Let A Thousand Nations Bloom]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 23 Mar 2011 15:38:32 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://athousandnations.com/?p=749#comment-13399</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[[...] of course, are based on rules. But most people don’t want anarchy necessarily; they simply want new rules and new [...]]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] of course, are based on rules. But most people don’t want anarchy necessarily; they simply want new rules and new [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Max Borders steps up to the debate challenge. &#171; Panarchists</title>
		<link>http://athousandnations.com/2009/10/20/towards-youtopia-are-all-public-good-providers-earthbound/#comment-1504</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Max Borders steps up to the debate challenge. &#171; Panarchists]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 24 Feb 2010 21:39:48 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://athousandnations.com/?p=749#comment-1504</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[[...] Borders steps up to the debate&#160;challenge. Max Borders, you may recall, wrote the interesting series on the Thousand Nations website, describing panarchy without using the word. Well now he has stepped up to a challenge to debate [...]]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] Borders steps up to the debate&nbsp;challenge. Max Borders, you may recall, wrote the interesting series on the Thousand Nations website, describing panarchy without using the word. Well now he has stepped up to a challenge to debate [...]</p>
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		<title>By: An Anthropic Principle for Economics &#171; Let A Thousand Nations Bloom</title>
		<link>http://athousandnations.com/2009/10/20/towards-youtopia-are-all-public-good-providers-earthbound/#comment-1387</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[An Anthropic Principle for Economics &#171; Let A Thousand Nations Bloom]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 01 Feb 2010 19:38:20 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://athousandnations.com/?p=749#comment-1387</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[[...] An Anthropic Principle for&#160;Economics 2010 February 1   tags: Anthropic Principle, Douglass North, Economics, Meta-institutions by Mike Gibson   Another guest post for A Thousand Nations from Max Borders. You can see his previous posts here.&#8211;Editor [...]]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] An Anthropic Principle for&nbsp;Economics 2010 February 1   tags: Anthropic Principle, Douglass North, Economics, Meta-institutions by Mike Gibson   Another guest post for A Thousand Nations from Max Borders. You can see his previous posts here.&#8211;Editor [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Organization, Olson and the Red Queen Effect &#171; Let A Thousand Nations Bloom</title>
		<link>http://athousandnations.com/2009/10/20/towards-youtopia-are-all-public-good-providers-earthbound/#comment-1032</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Organization, Olson and the Red Queen Effect &#171; Let A Thousand Nations Bloom]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 16 Nov 2009 09:50:59 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://athousandnations.com/?p=749#comment-1032</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[[...] Organization, Olson and the Red Queen&#160;Effect 2009 November 16   tags: Clay Shirky, Politics, public choice, Red Queen, Ronald Coase by Guest Blogger   This is another post from our guest Max Borders. You can find his earlier posts here.&#8211;Editor [...]]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] Organization, Olson and the Red Queen&nbsp;Effect 2009 November 16   tags: Clay Shirky, Politics, public choice, Red Queen, Ronald Coase by Guest Blogger   This is another post from our guest Max Borders. You can find his earlier posts here.&#8211;Editor [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Towards Youtopia. &#171; Panarchists</title>
		<link>http://athousandnations.com/2009/10/20/towards-youtopia-are-all-public-good-providers-earthbound/#comment-985</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Towards Youtopia. &#171; Panarchists]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 01 Nov 2009 20:23:07 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://athousandnations.com/?p=749#comment-985</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[[...] Adam Knott brought to my attention a fascinating article that echoes the idea of non-territorial governments. The article is especially interesting in that [...]]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] Adam Knott brought to my attention a fascinating article that echoes the idea of non-territorial governments. The article is especially interesting in that [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Dwight Johnson</title>
		<link>http://athousandnations.com/2009/10/20/towards-youtopia-are-all-public-good-providers-earthbound/#comment-984</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Dwight Johnson]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 01 Nov 2009 20:07:45 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://athousandnations.com/?p=749#comment-984</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Max,

Your ideas are not new to the small group of libertarians who call themselves panarchists. I encourage you to take a look at panarchist.org, and especially the links there to panarchy.org (home of an exhaustive library of references), and Panarchy South Jersey (panarchy-sj.com), which discusses the implementation of panarchy at the municipal level of government.

As opposed to the utilitarian or deontological, I take the ontological approach, looking at human nature and the human rights that derive from it as the source of my argument for panarchy. My example of two non-territorial governments in my town does not attempt to resolve your question of territorial versus non-territorial, but simply gets around it by positing two independent governments that cooperate on all things (at least in this example) except education. My intention is to get people first of all to recognize the very possibility of non-territorial governments existing. The resolution of what must be territorial I leave for the working out by experiment, with the creation of other non-territorial governments within the town which attempt to go their own way with regard to police and judicial services, or any other component of govennment that might be considered properly territorial.

I began by saying that your ideas are not new to panarchists; however, I am very happy to see these thoughts so clearly expressed by you in your two &quot;Youtopia&quot; articles. The freedom of self-determination, including the right to choose ones government at every level, is something that we should all be working toward, each in his own way, but acknowledging the good wherever we see it.

I wanted specifically to say something about &quot;taxes&quot;. Libertarians look upon taxes as theft, insofar as the government is an involuntary component in society. The ability for a person to choose their government would remove the nature it has had up to now of being monopolist and involuntary. I would agree with you that taxes within the context of a freely chosen government lose the nature of &quot;stolen goods&quot; and become instead &quot;fees for services&quot;.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Max,</p>
<p>Your ideas are not new to the small group of libertarians who call themselves panarchists. I encourage you to take a look at panarchist.org, and especially the links there to panarchy.org (home of an exhaustive library of references), and Panarchy South Jersey (panarchy-sj.com), which discusses the implementation of panarchy at the municipal level of government.</p>
<p>As opposed to the utilitarian or deontological, I take the ontological approach, looking at human nature and the human rights that derive from it as the source of my argument for panarchy. My example of two non-territorial governments in my town does not attempt to resolve your question of territorial versus non-territorial, but simply gets around it by positing two independent governments that cooperate on all things (at least in this example) except education. My intention is to get people first of all to recognize the very possibility of non-territorial governments existing. The resolution of what must be territorial I leave for the working out by experiment, with the creation of other non-territorial governments within the town which attempt to go their own way with regard to police and judicial services, or any other component of govennment that might be considered properly territorial.</p>
<p>I began by saying that your ideas are not new to panarchists; however, I am very happy to see these thoughts so clearly expressed by you in your two &#8220;Youtopia&#8221; articles. The freedom of self-determination, including the right to choose ones government at every level, is something that we should all be working toward, each in his own way, but acknowledging the good wherever we see it.</p>
<p>I wanted specifically to say something about &#8220;taxes&#8221;. Libertarians look upon taxes as theft, insofar as the government is an involuntary component in society. The ability for a person to choose their government would remove the nature it has had up to now of being monopolist and involuntary. I would agree with you that taxes within the context of a freely chosen government lose the nature of &#8220;stolen goods&#8221; and become instead &#8220;fees for services&#8221;.</p>
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		<title>By: Youtopia Part II: Let Persuasion Rule Over Power &#171; Let A Thousand Nations Bloom</title>
		<link>http://athousandnations.com/2009/10/20/towards-youtopia-are-all-public-good-providers-earthbound/#comment-976</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Youtopia Part II: Let Persuasion Rule Over Power &#171; Let A Thousand Nations Bloom]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 29 Oct 2009 16:43:33 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://athousandnations.com/?p=749#comment-976</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[[...] Youtopia Part II: Let Persuasion Rule Over&#160;Power 2009 October 21   tags: Charles Murray, Community, Libertarianism, Politics, Robert Nozick by Guest Blogger   This is our second post from Max Borders. His first can be found here.&#8211;Editor [...]]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] Youtopia Part II: Let Persuasion Rule Over&nbsp;Power 2009 October 21   tags: Charles Murray, Community, Libertarianism, Politics, Robert Nozick by Guest Blogger   This is our second post from Max Borders. His first can be found here.&#8211;Editor [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Max Borders</title>
		<link>http://athousandnations.com/2009/10/20/towards-youtopia-are-all-public-good-providers-earthbound/#comment-942</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Max Borders]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 21 Oct 2009 12:30:46 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://athousandnations.com/?p=749#comment-942</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[The utilitarian/deontological two-step is fairly typical. Can&#039;t argue with you there. However, I think there is considerable force to the idea that - whether or not you&#039;re dancing between a moralistic and consequentialist frame - you have to embrace x either way. To embrace x over y at least makes the arguments clearer and the lines starker. In other words, I think it&#039;s tougher to argue y and evoke either form of moralism. That said, your identifying this back and forth between utilitarian and deontological premises as a general problem in political discourse is right on. In this particular case, though, once you get people to agree to x, they may be committing themselves to a global Leviathan and an &quot;any means necessary&quot; frame that puts them on the defensive. A clever person can probably find some rhetorical middle ground between x and y, but it isn&#039;t going to be easy. If they can&#039;t tell me the &quot;moral&quot; difference between different rights of exit, then they&#039;ve got the problem. My hope with this duality is to force one&#039;s intellectual commitments utterly to statism or to opening the door to liberty. (And by the way, if we can pin them down either to consequentialism or deontology, then we can argue for a right of exit on those terms. At least that&#039;s my hope.)]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The utilitarian/deontological two-step is fairly typical. Can&#8217;t argue with you there. However, I think there is considerable force to the idea that &#8211; whether or not you&#8217;re dancing between a moralistic and consequentialist frame &#8211; you have to embrace x either way. To embrace x over y at least makes the arguments clearer and the lines starker. In other words, I think it&#8217;s tougher to argue y and evoke either form of moralism. That said, your identifying this back and forth between utilitarian and deontological premises as a general problem in political discourse is right on. In this particular case, though, once you get people to agree to x, they may be committing themselves to a global Leviathan and an &#8220;any means necessary&#8221; frame that puts them on the defensive. A clever person can probably find some rhetorical middle ground between x and y, but it isn&#8217;t going to be easy. If they can&#8217;t tell me the &#8220;moral&#8221; difference between different rights of exit, then they&#8217;ve got the problem. My hope with this duality is to force one&#8217;s intellectual commitments utterly to statism or to opening the door to liberty. (And by the way, if we can pin them down either to consequentialism or deontology, then we can argue for a right of exit on those terms. At least that&#8217;s my hope.)</p>
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		<title>By: contemplationist</title>
		<link>http://athousandnations.com/2009/10/20/towards-youtopia-are-all-public-good-providers-earthbound/#comment-941</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[contemplationist]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 21 Oct 2009 04:02:08 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://athousandnations.com/?p=749#comment-941</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Max

Nice attempt. I think the dissonant thinking that leads to such conclusions is the bait-and-switch between moral and utilitarian arguments. E.G. saying &quot;rich people need to pay more taxes because they benefit more&quot; to &quot;we can&#039;t let rich people pay lesser taxes, it would harm the poor&quot; depending on the argument, and combining both of those into a muddled narrative. Of course one can believe both the moral and the consequential argument, but i&#039;m guessing (pessimistically) that the (moral) frame that you have established will be countered with consequential/utilitarian arguments, and if/when you argue the consequential, you&#039;ll be presented with moralistic preening.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Max</p>
<p>Nice attempt. I think the dissonant thinking that leads to such conclusions is the bait-and-switch between moral and utilitarian arguments. E.G. saying &#8220;rich people need to pay more taxes because they benefit more&#8221; to &#8220;we can&#8217;t let rich people pay lesser taxes, it would harm the poor&#8221; depending on the argument, and combining both of those into a muddled narrative. Of course one can believe both the moral and the consequential argument, but i&#8217;m guessing (pessimistically) that the (moral) frame that you have established will be countered with consequential/utilitarian arguments, and if/when you argue the consequential, you&#8217;ll be presented with moralistic preening.</p>
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