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	<title>Comments on: A Debate Proposal</title>
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	<link>http://athousandnations.com/2010/02/21/a-debate-proposal/</link>
	<description>Towards a Cambrian Explosion in Government</description>
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		<title>By: Gian Piero de Bellis</title>
		<link>http://athousandnations.com/2010/02/21/a-debate-proposal/#comment-1531</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Gian Piero de Bellis]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 28 Feb 2010 18:15:20 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://athousandnations.com/?p=1159#comment-1531</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Dear Adam, I have just read your latest message and I am in full agreement with what you say.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Dear Adam, I have just read your latest message and I am in full agreement with what you say.</p>
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		<title>By: Adam Knott</title>
		<link>http://athousandnations.com/2010/02/21/a-debate-proposal/#comment-1530</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Adam Knott]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 28 Feb 2010 17:56:01 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://athousandnations.com/?p=1159#comment-1530</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Thank you for these comments Gian Piero

The argument I would like to make to Max, Dwight, Grant, and anyone who is open to brainstorming in this direction, is that strictly speaking, I or we do not have to demand that anyone else change their ideology or convictions.  We can proceed with our voluntary ways while others proceed with their coercive system.  We don&#039;t have to demand that they change it, and instead we can focus our energy on constructing our own communities.

For example, let&#039;s say that libertarians had their own &quot;million libertarian march&quot; on Washington.  Instead of making demands of statists, these million libertarians could all give each other a ten second shoulder massage after which they would each pay one another for said massage.  Maybe the payment would be some kind of barter payment.    After the march is over, all million libertarians would go home.  They would have just established their own &quot;free trade&quot; agreement, right out in public for the world to see.  There is no need to demand anything of anyone.  It is all voluntary and coordinated action amongst like-minded people.  The statists can still have all their laws in place.   That is their business and their problem.

Now, the &quot;million libertarian march&quot; would be expensive for libertarians.  They would have to pay for transportation, lodging, and food.   Maybe this march is a good idea, and maybe it isn&#039;t.  

But this march needn&#039;t be done in Washington.  It could be done over Internet instead, and, Internationally.  And then the cost would be very little.  The cost would then be the time and effort of those involved.   Libertarians can have a &quot;million libertarian march&quot; on the Internet, or something like this.  They can establish their own community with other like-minded people, and this doesn&#039;t have to entail any hostile actions or hostile demands toward others whatsoever.  All statists can go about their business unharmed, and unharassed.   

What kind of community might be established?  How can this be best arranged so that it is easy for libertarians to do, but hard or even impossible for statists to prevent?

These are the ideas that I&#039;m suggesting libertarians could be discussing.  The idea is: what can we do?   Not: what can we demand of nonlibertarians.

Liberty is not emerging because libertarians are seeing libertarianism as a program that seeks to change nonlibertarians into libertarians (by demanding that nonlibertarians change their morals, ethics, and laws).  I think liberty will begin to emerge when we abandon the attempt to change the convictions of conscience of nonlibertarians, and focus instead on the beautiful forms of association that only we, as libertarians, know how to construct.

How to begin?  What to construct?  If libertarian minds begin to attack these problems, I think liberty might be something we begin to have, rather than something we only talk and write about.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thank you for these comments Gian Piero</p>
<p>The argument I would like to make to Max, Dwight, Grant, and anyone who is open to brainstorming in this direction, is that strictly speaking, I or we do not have to demand that anyone else change their ideology or convictions.  We can proceed with our voluntary ways while others proceed with their coercive system.  We don&#8217;t have to demand that they change it, and instead we can focus our energy on constructing our own communities.</p>
<p>For example, let&#8217;s say that libertarians had their own &#8220;million libertarian march&#8221; on Washington.  Instead of making demands of statists, these million libertarians could all give each other a ten second shoulder massage after which they would each pay one another for said massage.  Maybe the payment would be some kind of barter payment.    After the march is over, all million libertarians would go home.  They would have just established their own &#8220;free trade&#8221; agreement, right out in public for the world to see.  There is no need to demand anything of anyone.  It is all voluntary and coordinated action amongst like-minded people.  The statists can still have all their laws in place.   That is their business and their problem.</p>
<p>Now, the &#8220;million libertarian march&#8221; would be expensive for libertarians.  They would have to pay for transportation, lodging, and food.   Maybe this march is a good idea, and maybe it isn&#8217;t.  </p>
<p>But this march needn&#8217;t be done in Washington.  It could be done over Internet instead, and, Internationally.  And then the cost would be very little.  The cost would then be the time and effort of those involved.   Libertarians can have a &#8220;million libertarian march&#8221; on the Internet, or something like this.  They can establish their own community with other like-minded people, and this doesn&#8217;t have to entail any hostile actions or hostile demands toward others whatsoever.  All statists can go about their business unharmed, and unharassed.   </p>
<p>What kind of community might be established?  How can this be best arranged so that it is easy for libertarians to do, but hard or even impossible for statists to prevent?</p>
<p>These are the ideas that I&#8217;m suggesting libertarians could be discussing.  The idea is: what can we do?   Not: what can we demand of nonlibertarians.</p>
<p>Liberty is not emerging because libertarians are seeing libertarianism as a program that seeks to change nonlibertarians into libertarians (by demanding that nonlibertarians change their morals, ethics, and laws).  I think liberty will begin to emerge when we abandon the attempt to change the convictions of conscience of nonlibertarians, and focus instead on the beautiful forms of association that only we, as libertarians, know how to construct.</p>
<p>How to begin?  What to construct?  If libertarian minds begin to attack these problems, I think liberty might be something we begin to have, rather than something we only talk and write about.</p>
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		<title>By: Gian Piero de Bellis</title>
		<link>http://athousandnations.com/2010/02/21/a-debate-proposal/#comment-1529</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Gian Piero de Bellis]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 28 Feb 2010 13:41:40 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://athousandnations.com/?p=1159#comment-1529</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[I think the question “Is a right of exit ...” is not the correct one and I share the perplexities pointed out by Adam Knott in his very good comment.
The question should focus on the right of non-ascription. Let’s put it this way: Can someone ascribe you (put your name) to a certain community according to the place were you where born, or on the basis other qualifications not of your choice, and bind you to certain obligations irrespective of your specific reality and values (e.g. to pay taxes for a war you oppose)? 
In other words, the problem is not the right of exit but the right of non-ascription.
We have to move from ascribed status to voluntary contract (see Henry Sumner Maine)
So, I am not asking statists for the right of exit but I want to tell everybody that I do not want to be ascribed to a status I do not like and I will do all I can to alter my situation, in association with other individuals who share this aim. This means to set up projects and devise paths that will annihilate the power of those who want to make me subaltern to their conception (the statists). 
This is the same dynamics that freed the servants from their ascribed status of subjection to the feudal masters. They left the countryside and went to set up free towns. Now there are no virgin territories where to start new communities and we should start new ways of social organization within the old ones. Once those ways are in place (for instance new ways of payment, new ways of providing security, etc.) the monopolistic world will be on his way out (like the aristocratic world of bygone ages).]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I think the question “Is a right of exit &#8230;” is not the correct one and I share the perplexities pointed out by Adam Knott in his very good comment.<br />
The question should focus on the right of non-ascription. Let’s put it this way: Can someone ascribe you (put your name) to a certain community according to the place were you where born, or on the basis other qualifications not of your choice, and bind you to certain obligations irrespective of your specific reality and values (e.g. to pay taxes for a war you oppose)?<br />
In other words, the problem is not the right of exit but the right of non-ascription.<br />
We have to move from ascribed status to voluntary contract (see Henry Sumner Maine)<br />
So, I am not asking statists for the right of exit but I want to tell everybody that I do not want to be ascribed to a status I do not like and I will do all I can to alter my situation, in association with other individuals who share this aim. This means to set up projects and devise paths that will annihilate the power of those who want to make me subaltern to their conception (the statists).<br />
This is the same dynamics that freed the servants from their ascribed status of subjection to the feudal masters. They left the countryside and went to set up free towns. Now there are no virgin territories where to start new communities and we should start new ways of social organization within the old ones. Once those ways are in place (for instance new ways of payment, new ways of providing security, etc.) the monopolistic world will be on his way out (like the aristocratic world of bygone ages).</p>
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		<title>By: David</title>
		<link>http://athousandnations.com/2010/02/21/a-debate-proposal/#comment-1527</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[David]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 28 Feb 2010 02:10:57 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://athousandnations.com/?p=1159#comment-1527</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Sounds great when do we start? I think the whole government should be fired and replaced with one that upholds the constitution. Non violent prisoners of the drug war should be released. All the wars should stop now befor its to late and there is nothing left.WE THE PEOPLE need to take our country today.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Sounds great when do we start? I think the whole government should be fired and replaced with one that upholds the constitution. Non violent prisoners of the drug war should be released. All the wars should stop now befor its to late and there is nothing left.WE THE PEOPLE need to take our country today.</p>
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		<title>By: Community, Exit, and Liberty &#171; Let A Thousand Nations Bloom</title>
		<link>http://athousandnations.com/2010/02/21/a-debate-proposal/#comment-1514</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Community, Exit, and Liberty &#171; Let A Thousand Nations Bloom]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 25 Feb 2010 22:45:04 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://athousandnations.com/?p=1159#comment-1514</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[[...] Community, Exit, and&#160;Liberty 2010 February 25   tags: Community, democracy, exit vs. voice, Spontaneous Order by Guest Blogger   This guest post is by Gus diZerega, a contributor to both Beliefnet and Studies in Emergent Order. Gus is a political scientist/theorist with a PhD from the University of California at Berkeley. This is his response to the debate proposal.&#8211;Editor [...]]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] Community, Exit, and&nbsp;Liberty 2010 February 25   tags: Community, democracy, exit vs. voice, Spontaneous Order by Guest Blogger   This guest post is by Gus diZerega, a contributor to both Beliefnet and Studies in Emergent Order. Gus is a political scientist/theorist with a PhD from the University of California at Berkeley. This is his response to the debate proposal.&#8211;Editor [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Adam Knott</title>
		<link>http://athousandnations.com/2010/02/21/a-debate-proposal/#comment-1509</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Adam Knott]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 25 Feb 2010 04:09:06 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://athousandnations.com/?p=1159#comment-1509</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Thank you Grant

Are you saying that coexisting societies are a reality, or that within the confines of existing State laws various creative collaborative efforts are underway?

If the the former, this would be, bar none, the most important story in the libertarian world.  Regardless whether the mainstream press reported on it, in the libertarian blogosphere, this would be the number one story, every day, and we all would know about it.

My post wasn&#039;t referring to the latter, which I think is what you are referring to.

I&#039;m talking about coexisting societies, not the infinite possibilities within the existing legal framework.

Adam]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thank you Grant</p>
<p>Are you saying that coexisting societies are a reality, or that within the confines of existing State laws various creative collaborative efforts are underway?</p>
<p>If the the former, this would be, bar none, the most important story in the libertarian world.  Regardless whether the mainstream press reported on it, in the libertarian blogosphere, this would be the number one story, every day, and we all would know about it.</p>
<p>My post wasn&#8217;t referring to the latter, which I think is what you are referring to.</p>
<p>I&#8217;m talking about coexisting societies, not the infinite possibilities within the existing legal framework.</p>
<p>Adam</p>
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		<title>By: Grant</title>
		<link>http://athousandnations.com/2010/02/21/a-debate-proposal/#comment-1508</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Grant]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 25 Feb 2010 03:52:30 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://athousandnations.com/?p=1159#comment-1508</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Also, you may want to check out the Ripple Project on sourceforge:
http://ripple.sourceforge.net

Though as I&#039;m reading Adam&#039;s comment, this is already happening: WoW, Second Life, and all that. Items are traded in online communities which have real value in real life.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Also, you may want to check out the Ripple Project on sourceforge:<br />
<a href="http://ripple.sourceforge.net" rel="nofollow">http://ripple.sourceforge.net</a></p>
<p>Though as I&#8217;m reading Adam&#8217;s comment, this is already happening: WoW, Second Life, and all that. Items are traded in online communities which have real value in real life.</p>
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		<title>By: Max Borders steps up to the debate challenge. &#171; Panarchists</title>
		<link>http://athousandnations.com/2010/02/21/a-debate-proposal/#comment-1505</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Max Borders steps up to the debate challenge. &#171; Panarchists]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 24 Feb 2010 21:39:53 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://athousandnations.com/?p=1159#comment-1505</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[[...] website, describing panarchy without using the word. Well now he has stepped up to a challenge to debate innovations in governance on that site (and be sure to read the excellent comment by our own Adam Knott), only now he has [...]]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] website, describing panarchy without using the word. Well now he has stepped up to a challenge to debate innovations in governance on that site (and be sure to read the excellent comment by our own Adam Knott), only now he has [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Adam Knott</title>
		<link>http://athousandnations.com/2010/02/21/a-debate-proposal/#comment-1503</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Adam Knott]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 24 Feb 2010 18:08:27 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://athousandnations.com/?p=1159#comment-1503</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Thank you Mike

I&#039;ll look for it today.

Adam]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thank you Mike</p>
<p>I&#8217;ll look for it today.</p>
<p>Adam</p>
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		<title>By: Mike Gibson</title>
		<link>http://athousandnations.com/2010/02/21/a-debate-proposal/#comment-1500</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Mike Gibson]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 24 Feb 2010 17:53:18 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://athousandnations.com/?p=1159#comment-1500</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Adam--Have you seen the latest cover story for the March issue of Wired? It profiles companies like Square and Obopay that are creating ways to electronically transfer money. Not quite cryptographically protected banking, but interesting nonetheless. Take a look.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Adam&#8211;Have you seen the latest cover story for the March issue of Wired? It profiles companies like Square and Obopay that are creating ways to electronically transfer money. Not quite cryptographically protected banking, but interesting nonetheless. Take a look.</p>
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